I have a question for the Schwer readers. I need as much input and feedback as possible, so please, everyone comment.
I am having something of a disagreement with TDOMMX about the English patch, so I would like to have the opinions of the community who will actually be playing the game. The English Trial version required the game disc, either in ISO or physical form, to install the "Extended Preview", which allowed people to see the English scripts for the prologue and the 8 bosses. I found this to be a nice little goody, so it was all well and good. However, he also wants to make the disc a requirement for the final patch, and I don't really think that's a good idea.
TDOMMX's reason, as noted in the previous comments, are as follows:
You will however need an original RKS game disc to install the English version; our installer dummy-proofs the process, installs the necessary system files, the game itself, the Freudia Voice Enhancement, and our English localization. In effect, you get Version 1.05 since that's what our graphics edits are based on. Unfortunately, NSIS isn't nearly as intelligent as [erka:es]'s custom patcher, so the installer filesize will be a little larger than I would like (though it won't be quite as large as the English Trial - that contained two versions of the game instead of just one).
In spite of the fact that there's a tutorial on this very blog linked to on the right menu on how to install all of the necessary patches from a clean install, he still feels this necessary.
What is your opinion? Do you think having the physical disc/disc image should be a requirement for the English patch of the game?
I personally don't see it as much of a protection. Most of the people who pirated the game probably have the .ISO, or if they don't they can probably dig around and find it fast enough that it doesn't matter.
ReplyDeleteThen there's the fact those who might have lost their disc-- you should see my desk, it's this mountain of discs outside their boxes, and heaven knows where the cases even are anymore-- won't be able to enjoy the English patch at all.
I think this just blurs the line between 'piracy protection' and 'just damn inconvenient for some people'.
And yet I can see the reasoning behind not wanting to distribute the games files... but really, does it matter? You're not distributing the whole game-- the game files you'd be sharing, patched or otherwise, would be useless without the other half of the files. You can distribute the script files and voice enhancements and all, but it's not going to be any use without the .exe to run the game, is it?
'eh, this turned out way wordier than I'd have liked it. In the end: do it however you want. But I (personally) don't see the advantages of needing the disc over just handing out the files themselves.
nooooooo, plz don't make the original disc a requirement for the E patch, sine it's very hard to find (I still haven't found it) and it'll take more space in comp => dun wanna T_T
ReplyDeletedont make it a requirement, it just makes the installation more difficult than it could be, propably costs some reputation on how good your work is then
ReplyDeleteI disagree that RKS players need an original disc to install the English version
ReplyDeleteTo make it short, I don't think it would be a good idea to make the disk a requirement.
ReplyDeleteDri pretty much said what I had in mind, actually.
Also, most of the english-speaking RKS players couldn't even find a copy of the original RKS, even those who searched for it.
Now, besides going for a trip to Japan, it's very hard to find.
This could make the english patch available to only very few people, as Japanese usually don't care of having a... translation since it's already in their language.
I've spoken Japanese for quite a time, even for my job, so it won't change the world for me, but it could be quite a pain for the others, Letty ;-)
Let's see what TDOMMX (no mistakes !) have to say, then ;-)
I agree with Dri that whoever pirated the game probably has the ISO. If not, they can find it – every game has already been pirated. It's like a rule of the internet.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if this is a matter of your reputation with the game developers, by all means do whatever is needed to preserve that.
I come to the same conclusion as Dri: I don't see the need for it, but you should do whatever you feel most comfortable with.
I personally would hate to see that the E patch needing an origanal copy. like some people said the people in english speaking communitys are pritty much out of luck trying to find it to buy and for those that managed to I congratulate you. I spent hours looking for it then spent another few hours looking to download it and still didnt find an iso file. Heck i'd gladly pay for it if I found it but that doesn't mean that those of us that at least made an effort to find it ligitly get the low end of the deal in my opinion that would just be unfair
ReplyDeleteI don't want to really take part in the discussion but I want to say that it's not a game you can easily get the original disc.
ReplyDeleteMost doujin selling websites either don't have the game or it's sold out. It's almost impossible to get the game for western people, and I don't think it's piece of cake for Japanese people too. Sadly, RKS is not as famous as Touhou.
I think adding a disc requirement will force people to download the original disc and, in the end, will increase piracy intead of decreasing it.
I don't know why doujin circles don't do the same as western indie game developper, where you can buy the game online and download it. It would be so much easier for western people to get doujin games.
Go ahead, in my opinion. It's not as if it matters, it's just a minor inconvenience.
ReplyDelete"You will however need an original RKS game disc to install the English version"
ReplyDeleteOveruled ! So let's think how other country's studens play RKS have a RKS game disc , ship from Japan ? , or buy it in internet ? It's too expensive for a student , you see .
I vote no. Do not make the original disc a requirement. We have been waiting far too long to play the game in English and if you make the disc a requirement, all that waiting will be for nothing.
ReplyDeleteDude how am I suppose to get the disc for the game when its hard to find it when its sold out in a bunch of places and the fact that I have no money to buy it myself, let alone have a credit card...? T_T So I vote "no" on having the disc as a requirement.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't really matter to me either way. Having to toy around with the game disc sounds like unnecessary trouble, though.
ReplyDeleteNow, this may sound a bit odd, but have you considered asking [erka:es] about this? Then again, if they don't know about your project already, it might be rather awkward if they didn't like having a translation for whatever reason.
I vote no as well, finding the original game disc seems impossible (even though I made a CD putting the game that I downloaded from MegaUpload onto a writable disk and tested the installation of the English trial with that CD I made, and the installation worked).
ReplyDeletePersonally, I have no qualms about this. I could enjoy the game without understanding the story. To me, the story is just a bonus. However, I would vote for NO. Other doujin games have English patches that do not need the original disc i.e. Touhou Project and Magical Battle Arena to name a few.
ReplyDeleteThe reason why any game is translated is so that the other side of the fan community that does not know the language gets to see and understand the plot. Translation patches are not done for the creators of the game but for the fan community. Not to mention that it could produce more fans for the game.
As the others said, I don't really see the need for it and it may just be a nuisance to other fans.
I don't really think I can add anything that hasn't been said already. But I do agree that because the game is so rare, only a handful of people would be able to get anything out of the english patch. So no, I don't think it would be the best of ideas to make the disc a requirement to download the patch.
ReplyDeleteUltimately though, I agree that the best course of action is the one you both feel most comfortable about.
Think about it! 99.9% of people outside Japan don't own an original copy of the game since it's hard to find. And the Japanese who own the game don't give a damn about an English patch since it's already in their own language. The point is, if the original ISO is needed to patch the game, you only making this patch for a few people.
ReplyDeleteSo my vote is no
No, since nobody's got the original ISO anyway so no one will enjoy the patch.
ReplyDeleteIf Erka:es requests that you have the disc be a requirement, then that's what you should do.
ReplyDeleteI agree that it's not much piracy protection - it's pretty easy to find the ISO online, for sure.
Sorry for bring up something related to this subject matter with the whole should having the disc for Rosenkreuzstilette is okay/not okay for everyone to enjoy the English version of RKS, which I still say no to because like a lot of people here who've been dying for this day to come only to realize that dream of an English Rosenkreuzstilette being crushed by not having the disc for it, not that many people like myself have the game disc for it. Let alone have any money to afford it. T_T
ReplyDeleteThis is an apology from Justin that I instructed him to do if he wants to reform himself to us. Sorry if I wasted your time, Letty.
Justin's Apology to Schwer and Schwer Alike.
It takes 15 minutes to download, so it will definitely stop no one from downloading it. If they downloaded it already, why wouldn't they do it again? Considering they have actually deleted the .iso
ReplyDeleteWhoa. I wasn't expecting this kind of post when I popped in today.
ReplyDeleteI've already outlined the rationale behind why the installer needs the original disc to work, but I'll repeat those points here for convenience.
I recognize many of the names here as regulars of JimBond007's Hongfire RKS thread, so I'm not surprised that many of you are opposed to the idea since he uploaded a rip of the game and not the actual ISO. I'll admit that piracy is a concern, but it's not the main reason why I've made the original disc a requirement. As Dri noted, anyone who knows where to look will find an ISO without a problem, and I quite frankly don't see a point in checking if someone is using a physical copy of the disc or a virtual drive (I could have implemented such a check, but decided against it).
As many of you have probably noticed, the Trial installer was huge. Granted, it contained both the official trial version and what was essentially a teaser patch, both of which were around 100 megs each. Now, [erka:es] has released no less than eight updates to the full version of the game. NSIS isn't the brightest when it comes to making patches for compressed files. If I edit a single image in bg.dat (which is 75 megs), the archive format creates a very different file due to the compression scheme. This, unfortunately, results in a 73 meg patch file using the absolute best compression settings (yes, I tried every single one of them). If I allow the installer to work on all nine versions of the game available (the eight patched ones plus the original), we could easily be dealing with a patcher that is many times larger than the original game. And I'm only talking about a single archive here - there are 23 in all.
Letty also suggested requiring the user to pre-patch the game to v1.05c before running the installer. In terms of filesize and complexity, this doesn't differ at all from patching the original v1.00a. I think this idea is kind of ridiculous: forcing someone to patch a patch. It makes the process much more complicated than it needs to be. Also, I have seen evidence that many users do not know how to patch the game correctly (judging from the comments I saw regarding the Grollschwert mod). Rather than have the user run the risk of inadvertently messing things up, I thought it would be wiser to read the original files from a source where I know they have not been modified and handle everything from there. Trust me - I've worked in IT long enough to know what not to let a user do.
I should note that the installer I have developed is very much like Mirror Moon's patchers for Tsukihime, Fate / Stay Night, Utawarerumono, and pretty much all of their other releases, and I have yet to see them receive backlash for "inconveniencing" the user. I also reject the claim that the game is too expensive: I got my copy for $30 Canadian, shipping included. I admit that the game is hard to find (which is why our supplier had to unfortunately bow out). I'm not about to take the moral high ground by only allowing the installer to work with physical copies of the disc; if you intend to pirate the game, just don't tell me or I'll have an obligation to [erka:es] to stop you.
In any event, Letty and I hope we'll be able to convince [erka:es] to reprint the game. If we had permission to do so, I'd have no qualms about packaging the full English version as a standalone. Hell, it's easier to straight-up install files than it is to patch them. But until the original developers give us permission to redistribute their work (or make it crystal clear that they don't care what foreigners do with their game - I'm looking at you, minori!), I can't in good conscience go forward with that idea.
If any of you have any questions or suggestions, post away. Who knows: maybe you have an idea that I hadn't thought of (though be advised that we might have to delay the release to make it happen). In any event, my decision is based on both ethics and practicality, so I'd need a compelling reason to change things at this point.